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Tag Archives: Zionis; God’s chosen people; God’s elect; children of God; Israel; all Israel shall be saved; end times

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Christian: Smashing Idols, I believe what God’s word says just as you do, yet seeing the unfolding differently obviously. God promise that his people would return back to their homeland. Read Jeremiah 31:10 for it is being fulfilled.

 

‘Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd does his flock’.

 

When he scattered them they lived in Israel. Israel was their homeland. Just as you quoted on John’s wall this scripture…

 

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are NOT all Israel, which are of Israel:
neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Romans 9:6-8 KJVA)

 

It isn’t saying all of the bloodline of the Israelites turn away from God, but indeed a lot of them did. The children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

me: Who  are the children of the promise according to scripture, Christian? What in scripture differentiates who is in covenant with God, and who isn’t? Rom 11 says there was a remnant of Jews in the first century who were grafted into the vine, by faith. Faith is confidence, so were they graffed into the vine by confidence in the FLESH, or confidence in Jesus? Jesus said “I AM the vine” in Jn 15:1.  Jesus said he alone is the way to the Father; that no man comes to [enters into covenant with] the Father but by me” in Jn 14:6. John the Baptist warned the Jews not to take any confidence that being born a Jew would resolve their sin, or assure them any place in God’s covenant Mat 3:7-12. Moses had told them that if they refused to hear the messiah, they would be destroyed Acts 3:22-23. Paul said he was an Israelite, and had a lot he could boast about before the Jews, but he counted it all as dung to win Christ’s approval, not man’s.
Php 3:2  Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.[Those who promote circumcision of the flesh]
Php 3:3  For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Php 3:4  Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5  Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6  Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7  But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10  That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11  If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

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Why don’t we find Paul hoping for, or preaching hope for a Jewish restoration of land ownership in this passage, or anywhere else? He preached the resurrection as the only hope, for both Jews and Gentiles, and that the only way to obtain it is through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord, not by being born a Jew.

The apostles knew that both Christ’s and Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy had warned of the soon coming destruction of Jerusalem and of the temple (Dan 9:24-27; Mat 23:37-39) (at least during John’s lifetime), and they came to understand that God no longer accepted temple ceremony or animal sacrifice after the temple veil was rent (the day the final acceptable sacrifice was made; the fulfillment of all the OT sacrifices). They realized that the NEW covenant had superseded the old, and that the old covenant had passed away, never to be resurrected again. (2Cor 3; Heb 8)

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Mat 23:37  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38  Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Joh 8:21  Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins
24 for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Mat 23:39  For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord {Jesus Christ}.
Joh 8:47  He that is of God heareth God’s words [Jn1:14]: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Joh 8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth…

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Christian: In Roman 11:26, it says and so all Israel shall be Saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. These are they who will be returning back as God has promised.

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me: Absolutely! But Rom 11 says nothing about Jews returning to a portion of land, but returning to God by faith in Jesus. As God promised, all through the OT and the NT, the only acceptable “return” to God is by faith in Jesus!  “All Israel” includes all believing Jews and Gentiles, because God has made all men of one blood [Act 17:26], and there is “no difference”! By faith, “all Israel” has the heavenly hope through covenanting with God by the blood of Jesus Christ!

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Christian: There will be deliverance unto the people of Israel.

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me:  There IS deliverance for the Jews and for the world only through faith in Christ. God is not a Calvinist; he forces no one’s deliverance on them. All land and restoration promises were fulfilled, first in Joshuah’s day, then in Ezra’s day, after the rebuilding. No future rebuilding is prophesied in scripture, no restoration to the land as a nation for either unbelievers or believing Jews.

How utterly false it is to extend a hope of land restoration (even if there WERE such a hope) to unbelieving, sinning Jews, who believe neither Moses nor Jesus! [John 5:46]. God only restored the land to a remnant of Israel who believed his word.  In promising any sort of restoration to wicked Jews who reject Christ, we would be like those who assure Catholics that they are all saved – while they continue praying to Mary and falling down to worship graven images.
I’m Jewish. Am I supposed to pack up and move to Israel? Is that where my deliverance is?

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Christian: Yes, their land was taken away because of their hardness & unrepentant heart. With that said… some Jewish people are not part of the chosen people any longer, but still under rebellion, who are going to use people unto scaring them by the Word of God.  Even people here in the USA do this same tactic. The promise is only due to the faithful ones who believed in what the fulfilling of the prophecy says. [emphasis mine]

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me: But I do believe the prophecy – and its fulfillment — it already happened — during Ezra’s time. The promise is only to those who believe.

But what is the “promise”? Is it not eternal life in an immortal body…to all who practice FAITH in Jesus Christ? God’s promise is the same to all who believe, because he is no respecter of persons.

If I did not believe God’s word: if I denied the fulfillment of Jeremiah and Ezekiel’s prophecies concerning Ezra’s day, and if I ignored what Moses warned concerning the destruction of everyone who rebels against God’s covenant; against all who reject the messiah… if I ignored the warning that John the baptist gave all unbelievers among Abraham’s fleshly seed, {who vainly trusted in the flesh: “We be Abraham’s seed”}, and if I rejected Christ’s warning to Jews in Jn 6:63 – that “the flesh profits nothing”, and if I had rejected the light in Gal 3, Rom 9:6-8, Rom 2:28-29, 2Cor 3, Hebrews, 1Pet 2, and scores of other places throughout scripture, concerning how that God intended to bring into his covenant and save believing Gentiles — I may be as willing as those in Israel today to take up a gun, and go murder and steal land from the heathen in order to fulfill (what in my deceived mind would be) God’s ‘unconditional’ promise of land for the Jews. I might even be deceived into thinking I should now go live in Israel, or I’d not be believing God!

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Christian: My friend was wondering the same thing as you, but he didn’t throw out falsehoods because of lacking to understand. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is over who gets what land and how it’s controlled.

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me: How is Jesus involved in the present Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Is Jesus fighting for Israel so they can kill Palestinians and take the land away from people who have been living there for 2000 years? The land of Israel had only been given to believers of God’s word centuries ago, under the condition that they continue obeying God’s word, not under the condition that they be Jews. I don’t believe that God is today giving that land to Jews (whether they believe in Jesus or not) under the condition that they must believe an ancient fulfilled prophecy applies to them, and that they must fulfill it again.

Is it true that, that, in spite of the fact that Jesus [God] said his servants do not fight {Jn 18:36}, must be harmless as doves {Mat 10:16}, must love their enemies in order to be God’s children {Mat 5:44-48}, and give their cloak to someone who steals their coat {Mat 5:40} –that Jesus is helping Zionist Jews act completely contrary to the gospel so they can control a portion of  land, which is the idol of many? And are we to believe that this is God’s will? Because I’m Jewish, should I join them in this horrible bloodshed, that Zionism might appear to the world to fulfill a prophecy again a second time, which was already fulfilled during Ezra’s time-to a specific group of obedient Jews?

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Christian: Today’s lines largely reflect the outcomes of two of these wars, one waged in 1948 and another in 1967. The 1967 war is particularly important for today’s conflict, as it left Israel in control of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, two territories home to large Palestinian populations for they still live there. It is the Muslims who want that control back. The Jewish people are being attack by Muslims just as the Muslims are attacking people here in the USA.

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me: Had the Jews {or anyone else} attacked and stole land from any people living anywhere else, as they did in 1948, wouldn’t anyone else have certainly retaliated? Are we to believe that the Zionist Jews had a God-given right and privilege to terrorize the Palestinians – because they were Jewish? Is there no racism in supposing such a thing? Should the unsaved Palestinians have been (and will they ever be) content to be attacked, and not retaliate – because it was Jews who attacked them? Should they have understood that it was time to pack up and leave the land, because those (who many imagine to be) “The Children of God” and “God’s chosen people” (who reject Jesus Christ, and for centuries haven’t been in covenant with God because of unbelief) had arrived, and that no one has any right but to defend themselves but the Jews?

Woah, let’s back up here a little and think about that idea –

“The Children of God – God’s chosen people who reject Jesus Christ” … isn’t that an impossible oxymoron?

If the Zionists came and bulldozed your house as you slept, and then shot your brother, then your sisters, then your parents as they tried to flee, what would you say to someone if they accused you of being “antisemitic” if you were seen later throwing rocks at Jewish tanks?

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Christian: So, in defense they (Jews) are fighting back, to which I don’t condone. It is God who will stop this fighting.

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me: But how will God stop this fighting? By giving the Jews power to annihilate the Palestinian Christians, muslims, and everyone else living there? Is it God who started this war in 1948 to fulfill prophecy, or was it the Zionists?

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Christian: I even said that on my wall to a brother “And give the land to the rightful children of God.”

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me: Multiple passages of scripture make clear that a “child of God” is one ONLY BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST, NOT BY FLESHLY RACE. Who has bewitched the multitudes into believing and teaching that murderers, thieves, and unbelieving antichrists are the “Children of God?” because of their race?

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Christian: As it is written: Ezekiel 28:25,26 This says the LORD God: When I shall have gathered the ‘House of ISRAEL’

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me: For they are NOT all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Romans 9:6-8)

Gal 3:16  Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

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“Israel” IS Christ!

And who is “Israel”?

Gal 3:7  Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Gal 3:8  And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. (In CHRIST)

Gal 3:9  So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Gal 3:14  That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit  through faith.

Gal 3:26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29  And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

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 My prayer for you is this, Christian: it is, that if you don’t remember, or think anything I’ve said here has any significance, that you will at least acknowledge the great significance of this verse and of verse 14.

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Christian: As it is written: Ezekiel 28:25,26 This says the LORD God: When I shall have gathered the ‘House of ISRAEL’ from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the Nations {heathen}, THEN SHALL THEY DWELL IN THEIR LAND that I have given to My servant, Jacob. AND THEY SHALL DWELL SAFELY IN IT  {therein}, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have EXECUTED judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the LORD their God. (Genesis 12:3; Psalm 41:13)

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As I see it the Prophesy is being fulfilled while the sinners fight among themselves neither will inherit the land. [emphasis mine]

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me:  Amen to what you said, that I emphasized in bold!

Are these unbelieving, sinning Jews safe, because they’re Jews? I agree that both sides [muslims and Zionists] are sinners who will never inherit anything from God but unrest, and if they don’t repent in faith in Jesus, they will all go to hell, Jew or Gentile, for with God there is no respect of persons [Rom 2].

 

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Christian: The way you are coming across to me and this is why I have been silence in case I am misunderstanding you also. Your stance reminds me of the crowd crying out to free ‘Barabbas’.

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me: So I am like those who cried “crucify Jesus”? So if I were to justify the theft and murder guilt of my own race, the Jews, then God would bless me for blessing them?

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Christian: Barabbas was a killer as you know. The Muslims are killers and they are not innocent in this fight for the land.

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me: Are the Zionist Jews innocent, who began terrorizing Palestine in 1948, and have continued doing so ever since?  There are CHRISTIANS in Palestine too! Am I to rejoice as if it’s God who’s destroying Palestine?

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Christian: They put their wives and children in the front line to be killed while the men are hiding in a protected area. The Muslims are playing the victim for their wives and children who are caught in crossfire, in hopes to gain the USA’s help to fight against the Jewish people and to hate them for what it appears to be happening. The Muslims want you to hate all Jewish people that would include you too. Their goal is to destroy all of the Jewish people not to stop once they gain the land.  Do you not believe that once they get this land back they won’t stop killing the Jewish people? You say you are a Jew though you should not be afraid, but you should know they are killing all Jewish people and Christians who are among themselves and all over the world as they too are spread out among the world. It is on their agenda to take over the world. Yes, the innocence on both sides are dying because of this fight. It is a shame and heartbreaking for those who believe what they are doing is right.[emphasis mine]

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me: Amen to that last statement. I know that ISIS plans to take over the world for allah (Satan). They will continue killing not only Jews, but everyone else, including other muslims.
But I also understand from their own leader’s words that the unbelieving/Zionist Jews are also planning to rule the world. They already rule the most powerful nation on earth, and boast about it. They control the “Federal” Reserve bank, which prints dollars backed with nothing, and through that witchcraft they control many kingdoms, crashing economies at will.  I don’t believe they will be content to stop at the genetic cleansing of Palestine. Those who have supported their present genocide will have to reap what they have sewn. It will come right where they live; to their doorstep. Their children will be killed in front of their eyes and they will be greatly oppressed, just as the Palestinians are now being.

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Christian: I hope this helps for I must go to work now any other questions will have to wait. I just read you last message to me. Asking me if I’m ignorant to that which you know to be true. Please, leave that kind of talk away from this or any conversation we may have together in the future.

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me: I’m sorry my question offended you because of the use of the word “ignorant”. I hope you will reconsider this shocking statement: “Your stance reminds me of the crowd crying out to free ‘Barabbas’.

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Christian: I already said I don’t agree with the bloodshed & if you chose to not believe me that is upon you not me.

 I need to go now Shalom

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me: Christian, if you don’t agree with the bloodshed, how then, without bloodshed (unless all those non-Jewish people who lived in Palestine prior to 1948, and all their children just pack up and leave “Israel, the Jewish state”) do you suppose Ezekiel 28:25,26 could be fulfilled?
I believe God’s word was fulfilled in Ezra’s day.  Ezra recorded its fulfillment. They didn’t fight the Assyrian army. God put it into the king of Assyria’s heart to let them rebuild, and they did. The seventy weeks prophecy in Dan 9:25 refers to it:

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Ezr 1:1  Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
Ezr 1:2  Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
Ezr 1:3  Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.

Dan 9:25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

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There is ONE way of peace for all, Jew or Gentile. There are not two gospels, there are not two different active covenants; one for Jews, and another for Gentiles. There is ONE hope, ONE way, ONE gospel. Without faith in Jesus, it is impossible to please God or be in covenant with him, or in grace, or inherit any promises.

May the love and light of the gospel permeate your soul and give you and your children peace.

Love in Christ,
Smashing Idols